please make your text reader friendly. please make use of spaces.
[ed note: Thanks for your comment. We are progressively introducing paragraph spacing into the longer entries in order to make them easier on the eye. However please remember that this punctuation is not original to the sources, which are unpunctuated.]
"Also the grandfather of the Ava-Burma ruling family member Mang Qi-sui was
extremely loyal, but he became involved in disputes and thereby met his death."
"Mang Qi-sui is to be shown great compassion and assistance."
Could contradict each other if the first was read:
"Also the grandfather of the Ava-Burma ruling family member, Mang Qi-sui, was
extremely loyal, but he became involved in disputes and thereby met his death."
Otherwise, it wouldn't appear to make any sense at all. I know it is probably an
unreasonable request, but is there any chance that you might add the original
classical Chinese text (gu-wen, wen-yan-wen) in the future? I'm not aware of any library in Southeast Asia or any place online with the classical Chinese Ming Shi-lu text. I would like to map this very ambiguous passage to actual events.
[Peter Schoppert: Jon, thank you for this and other suggestions. We would certainly like to link the translation to the Chinese original text, and certain design decisions were made with that eventual goal in mind. But as you correctly point out, there is not such version of the classical Chinese freely available online. The Academia Sinica was a "members only" version online, and we are in touch with them should they change their policy and open it up to public access. If you do hear of any efforts to put the classical Chinese version online, please let us know.]
Posted by Jon Fernquest (No Affiliation) on 15 Jul 2005
This is the year a well was built at the foot of Bukit Cina in Melaka. Legend had it that Hang Le Po (Princess of China) was offered as a wife to Sultan Mansur Syah. Melaka tourists information takes her literally as the daughter of Ming emperor. Had this been the case, the Ming Shi Lu should have some entries, especially in this particular page when the conferment and gifts for Sultan Mansur Syah were mentioned. There was none.
IN Malay, "Puteri Cina" means daughter of Chinese heritage and not princess of royal blood. It was common then for Chinese men to marry native women.
The "Kampaku" mentioned in this entry is the Toyotomi Hideyoshi (1536-1598), one of the warlords who unified Japan at the end of the 16th c. In 1592, he launched an attack to Korea, with the ultimate goal of conquering China, and perhaps even India. This fact is proved by some letters he personally wrote during the 1590's, and it is interesting how Ming intelligence was aware of Hideyoshi's ultimate goal already in 1593. Hideyoshi, who never went to Korea, died in 1598. His men, by then stalmated in the South of the Korean peninsula, returned immediately to Japan after seven years of frustrating attempts to submit the local populace. The intervention of the Ming Celestial Army was crucial in repelling the invasion, while the Korean contributed to the defense of their country with successful guerrilla-style attacks both on the land and at sea.
Sources:
Details on the title "Kampaku" (=Imperial Regent) and about the campaign in Korea can be found in "Hideyoshi," by Elizabeth Berry, 1982; the letters discussing Hideyoshi's ambitions are translated into English in "101 Letters of Hideyoshi," by Adriana Boscaro, 1975.
The campaign in Korea is treated by Jurgis Elisonas in "Japan’s Relationship with China and Korea" in The Cambridge History of Japan, Vol. IV.
As an undergraduate, I wrote a short paper which can be of interest as a simple introduction to this topic. It is still available online at: http://www.samurai-archives.com/hak.html
More sources (Japanese diaries, Korean sources) can be easily found.
Best Regards, and THANK YOU for this fantastic resource you are sharing.
Cesare Polenghi, cesare@hawaii.edu
Posted by Cesare Polenghi, MA candidate, University of Hawaii, History dept. on 15 Jan 2006
We've got to be careful with Harvey's interpretation that the raid of 1527 changed Burmese history so dramatically. Mainly, I think, it was because a Shan replaced a Burman on the Ava throne, which to Harvey might have been dramatic, having reified ethnicity so much, but to the chroniclers, Thohanbwa was simply added to the list of kings of Ava, although they did make the distinction (at least the printed version does, I'll have to recheck the mss itself), that this reign was a "Shan Dynasty." It amounted (in another more contemporary chronicle) to 3 kings, after which "Myanma" kings took the throne. I'm not sure how to make of the "fall of Ava," as historians like to see dramatic beginnings and ends but am working on this period and I am not sure it was as devastating an event as made out to be. It's far more complicated as Ava had Shan sawbwas as allies as well as enemies, and some Sawbwas came to help Ava against other Sawbwas. It was more political than ethnic.
As for Mang Qi-sui, if he's Mingyi Swa (or the long version, Mingyi Swasake), the chronology is way off (by about 200 years). That doesn't surprise me as some Chinese sources sometimes continued to use old terms. One, as I recall, asked an Ava king why the tribute stopped coming since Pagan had sent tribute (this was a couple of centuries later!)
Those of us interested in the Ava period and China (Jon, Geoff, Laichen, me) should get together in a workshop of some sort. NUS will fund?
MAT
Posted by Michael Aung-Thwin, University of Hawaii, Manoa on 25 Feb 2006
I am adopting a Pug Dog, she is very tiny, and both her dam and sire, are alert to strangers, but very sweet, when welcomed by their "Momma"...
You folks are going to think that I' m crazier than the proverbial "out-house mouse"...
Last night, I awoke out of a sound sleep, with a message saying in my tiny mind:
"Name her, 'Jah Jhing"... I couldn't help myself, I went to Google, and found out that I had not only the incorrect spelling, but possibly the wrong pronunciation...
Would you folks be kind enough to help me with not only pronunciation, but an English spelling, and if the name rings a distant bell, a bit of history...
Just curious, what happen to San Fo-qi in the list? After 1377 Ma-na-zhe Wu-li, was not mentioned again.
The reason for this interest is that based on W.Linehan's (1969) (The Kings of the 14th Century Singapore), this might be the only Chinese records of the old (Malay) Kings of Singapore.
please make your text reader friendly. please make use of spaces.
[ed note: Thanks for your comment. We are progressively introducing paragraph spacing into the longer entries in order to make them easier on the eye. However please remember that this punctuation is not original to the sources, which are unpunctuated.]
The two sentences:
"Also the grandfather of the Ava-Burma ruling family member Mang Qi-sui was
extremely loyal, but he became involved in disputes and thereby met his death."
"Mang Qi-sui is to be shown great compassion and assistance."
Could contradict each other if the first was read:
"Also the grandfather of the Ava-Burma ruling family member, Mang Qi-sui, was
extremely loyal, but he became involved in disputes and thereby met his death."
Otherwise, it wouldn't appear to make any sense at all. I know it is probably an
unreasonable request, but is there any chance that you might add the original
classical Chinese text (gu-wen, wen-yan-wen) in the future? I'm not aware of any library in Southeast Asia or any place online with the classical Chinese Ming Shi-lu text. I would like to map this very ambiguous passage to actual events.
Sincerely,
Jon Fernquest
bayinnaung@yahoo.com
[Peter Schoppert: Jon, thank you for this and other suggestions. We would certainly like to link the translation to the Chinese original text, and certain design decisions were made with that eventual goal in mind. But as you correctly point out, there is not such version of the classical Chinese freely available online. The Academia Sinica was a "members only" version online, and we are in touch with them should they change their policy and open it up to public access. If you do hear of any efforts to put the classical Chinese version online, please let us know.]
nmchow@yohoo.com.sg
This is the year a well was built at the foot of Bukit Cina in Melaka. Legend had it that Hang Le Po (Princess of China) was offered as a wife to Sultan Mansur Syah. Melaka tourists information takes her literally as the daughter of Ming emperor. Had this been the case, the Ming Shi Lu should have some entries, especially in this particular page when the conferment and gifts for Sultan Mansur Syah were mentioned. There was none.
IN Malay, "Puteri Cina" means daughter of Chinese heritage and not princess of royal blood. It was common then for Chinese men to marry native women.
Will it be better for cross referencing if the names thus translated are attached to the original Chinese Characters in brackets?
nmchow@yahoo.com.sg
The "Kampaku" mentioned in this entry is the Toyotomi Hideyoshi (1536-1598), one of the warlords who unified Japan at the end of the 16th c. In 1592, he launched an attack to Korea, with the ultimate goal of conquering China, and perhaps even India. This fact is proved by some letters he personally wrote during the 1590's, and it is interesting how Ming intelligence was aware of Hideyoshi's ultimate goal already in 1593. Hideyoshi, who never went to Korea, died in 1598. His men, by then stalmated in the South of the Korean peninsula, returned immediately to Japan after seven years of frustrating attempts to submit the local populace. The intervention of the Ming Celestial Army was crucial in repelling the invasion, while the Korean contributed to the defense of their country with successful guerrilla-style attacks both on the land and at sea.
Sources:
Details on the title "Kampaku" (=Imperial Regent) and about the campaign in Korea can be found in "Hideyoshi," by Elizabeth Berry, 1982; the letters discussing Hideyoshi's ambitions are translated into English in "101 Letters of Hideyoshi," by Adriana Boscaro, 1975.
The campaign in Korea is treated by Jurgis Elisonas in "Japan’s Relationship with China and Korea" in The Cambridge History of Japan, Vol. IV.
As an undergraduate, I wrote a short paper which can be of interest as a simple introduction to this topic. It is still available online at: http://www.samurai-archives.com/hak.html
More sources (Japanese diaries, Korean sources) can be easily found.
Best Regards, and THANK YOU for this fantastic resource you are sharing.
Cesare Polenghi,
cesare@hawaii.edu
aungthwi@hawaii.edu
We've got to be careful with Harvey's interpretation that the raid of 1527 changed Burmese history so dramatically. Mainly, I think, it was because a Shan replaced a Burman on the Ava throne, which to Harvey might have been dramatic, having reified ethnicity so much, but to the chroniclers, Thohanbwa was simply added to the list of kings of Ava, although they did make the distinction (at least the printed version does, I'll have to recheck the mss itself), that this reign was a "Shan Dynasty." It amounted (in another more contemporary chronicle) to 3 kings, after which "Myanma" kings took the throne. I'm not sure how to make of the "fall of Ava," as historians like to see dramatic beginnings and ends but am working on this period and I am not sure it was as devastating an event as made out to be. It's far more complicated as Ava had Shan sawbwas as allies as well as enemies, and some Sawbwas came to help Ava against other Sawbwas. It was more political than ethnic.
As for Mang Qi-sui, if he's Mingyi Swa (or the long version, Mingyi Swasake), the chronology is way off (by about 200 years). That doesn't surprise me as some Chinese sources sometimes continued to use old terms. One, as I recall, asked an Ava king why the tribute stopped coming since Pagan had sent tribute (this was a couple of centuries later!)
Those of us interested in the Ava period and China (Jon, Geoff, Laichen, me) should get together in a workshop of some sort. NUS will fund?
MAT
Dear folks:
I am adopting a Pug Dog, she is very tiny, and both her dam and sire, are alert to strangers, but very sweet, when welcomed by their "Momma"...
You folks are going to think that I' m crazier than the proverbial "out-house mouse"...
Last night, I awoke out of a sound sleep, with a message saying in my tiny mind:
"Name her, 'Jah Jhing"... I couldn't help myself, I went to Google, and found out that I had not only the incorrect spelling, but possibly the wrong pronunciation...
Would you folks be kind enough to help me with not only pronunciation, but an English spelling, and if the name rings a distant bell, a bit of history...
Thank you,
susan
nana@racc200.com ( e-mail address)
Just curious, what happen to San Fo-qi in the list? After 1377 Ma-na-zhe Wu-li, was not mentioned again.
The reason for this interest is that based on W.Linehan's (1969) (The Kings of the 14th Century Singapore), this might be the only Chinese records of the old (Malay) Kings of Singapore.
kunius@hotmail.com
I am studying about what Ming Shi-lu said about Thailand (Siam) and I found that the name
"Nai Si-li Chai-la-shi-xi-li" with the chinese letters are "奈
San-fo-qi = Sriwijaya Kingdom in Sumatra?
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